Comments on: My five (well four and one-half) issues with namespaces http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/ Night is darkest just before the dawn... Wed, 24 Feb 2010 10:50:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: My five (well four and one half) issues with... [ Planet PHP ] http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-72031 My five (well four and one half) issues with... [ Planet PHP ] Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:59:38 +0000 http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/#comment-72031 [...] 9th 2008 9:28am [-] From: elizabethmariesmith.com [...] [...] 9th 2008 9:28am [-] From: elizabethmariesmith.com [...]

]]> By: Matt http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-71959 Matt Tue, 09 Sep 2008 23:03:16 +0000 http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/#comment-71959 The way I see it, PHP 6 is going to be the end of PHP. A couple of weeks ago Rasmus said: 1. Rasmus: "Tell me where the Web is going, and I'll tell you what the future of PHP is". I can only tell you that web applications are getting more an more complex, and PHP is getting slower (unless you create a "hello world" application). 2. Rasmus: "PHP is only useful for the presentation layer". So, in other words, it's useless? Considering that Python and other scripting languages can do the same, and much more. 3. Rasmus: "Facebook and Yahoo don't scale because they use PHP, they scale because they use C++". Interesting. Is that why big companies are using python and java, including Yahoo? 4. Rasmus: "PHP frameworks are ridiculous slow". Thanks for the tip Rasmus. I guess that's why everyone is using Django nowadays, right? It's much faster than all the PHP framework together. 5. Rasmus: "I don't like frameworks" Low-level programmers don't like frameworks, but web developers do, and they need them. 6. Rasmus: "The front-controller pattern goes against the web architecture" Yeah right, that's why Rails and Django are becoming so popular right? Come on man, put yourself together and start supporting PHP developers. You are killing the language! And there's more, see it for yourself: http://www.archive.org/details/simple_is_hard The way I see it, PHP 6 is going to be the end of PHP. A couple of weeks ago Rasmus said:

1. Rasmus: “Tell me where the Web is going, and I’ll tell you what the future of PHP is”.

I can only tell you that web applications are getting more an more complex, and PHP is getting slower (unless you create a “hello world” application).

2. Rasmus: “PHP is only useful for the presentation layer”.

So, in other words, it’s useless? Considering that Python and other scripting languages can do the same, and much more.

3. Rasmus: “Facebook and Yahoo don’t scale because they use PHP, they scale because they use C++”.

Interesting. Is that why big companies are using python and java, including Yahoo?

4. Rasmus: “PHP frameworks are ridiculous slow”.

Thanks for the tip Rasmus. I guess that’s why everyone is using Django nowadays, right? It’s much faster than all the PHP framework together.

5. Rasmus: “I don’t like frameworks”

Low-level programmers don’t like frameworks, but web developers do, and they need them.

6. Rasmus: “The front-controller pattern goes against the web architecture”

Yeah right, that’s why Rails and Django are becoming so popular right? Come on man, put yourself together and start supporting PHP developers. You are killing the language!

And there’s more, see it for yourself:
http://www.archive.org/details/simple_is_hard

]]> By: Matthew Turland http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-71890 Matthew Turland Tue, 09 Sep 2008 13:20:22 +0000 http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/#comment-71890 I agree on #1 and think that would remove ambiguity both in the use and implementation of namespaces and might address #2 as well. If we can have stuff before class declarations, we should be able to have it before namespaces as well. In all the muss and fuss about them, I think some people may have lost sight of why they were brought up in the first place: so we don't have Some_Incredibly_Long_Class_Name_Like_This. I know it's more complex from an internals point of view, but from a user point of view, it's syntactic sugar for the sake of convenience and making code cleaner. That's all. Full agreement on all other points, though. Sounds like there are at least a few people on your side. Just my two cents. ;) I agree on #1 and think that would remove ambiguity both in the use and implementation of namespaces and might address #2 as well. If we can have stuff before class declarations, we should be able to have it before namespaces as well. In all the muss and fuss about them, I think some people may have lost sight of why they were brought up in the first place: so we don’t have Some_Incredibly_Long_Class_Name_Like_This. I know it’s more complex from an internals point of view, but from a user point of view, it’s syntactic sugar for the sake of convenience and making code cleaner. That’s all. Full agreement on all other points, though. Sounds like there are at least a few people on your side. Just my two cents. ;)

]]> By: auroraeosrose http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-71882 auroraeosrose Tue, 09 Sep 2008 12:40:57 +0000 http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/#comment-71882 Greg - as far as I can see #4 is the "big issue" - as you said the rest are pretty easy to fix, just things that SHOULD be fixed and not ignored Greg – as far as I can see #4 is the “big issue” – as you said the rest are pretty easy to fix, just things that SHOULD be fixed and not ignored

]]> By: Greg Beaver http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-71835 Greg Beaver Tue, 09 Sep 2008 05:27:54 +0000 http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/#comment-71835 #3 and #5 may have fallen (they're related), just posted a patch that (God willing) Stas will like :). I haven't thought much yet about #4. All the other issues are easy to fix. I'm pretty confident that #4 may be the most difficult design issue I've seen in PHP since I started. Hopefully I'm wrong. #3 and #5 may have fallen (they’re related), just posted a patch that (God willing) Stas will like :) .

I haven’t thought much yet about #4. All the other issues are easy to fix. I’m pretty confident that #4 may be the most difficult design issue I’ve seen in PHP since I started. Hopefully I’m wrong.

]]> By: Herman Radtke http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-71834 Herman Radtke Tue, 09 Sep 2008 05:23:10 +0000 http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/#comment-71834 I would like to import functions into the global namespace as well. Something similar to pythons "from module import *" would be nice. I can see a use for this in small utility scripts. I agree with Joshua about the Foo:bar() syntax. I thought it unneccisarily confusing in C++ as well. I would like to import functions into the global namespace as well. Something similar to pythons “from module import *” would be nice. I can see a use for this in small utility scripts.

I agree with Joshua about the Foo:bar() syntax. I thought it unneccisarily confusing in C++ as well.

]]> By: Joshua Eichorn http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/comment-page-1/#comment-71818 Joshua Eichorn Tue, 09 Sep 2008 00:29:28 +0000 http://elizabethmariesmith.com/2008/09/my-five-well-four-and-one-half-issues-with-namespaces/#comment-71818 The biggest issue to me is #4 1: function calls in a namespace looking like static method calls is not a matter of taste its a huge WTF 2: class with same name as namespace and static method hiding functions in namespace is a bug and should have a fix 3: I want to override built in php functions (maybe i want to fix a string function not covered by mbstring without auditing all my code) 4: I it would be nice to be able to alias over other userland functions if I want. Maybe i'm transitioning from one functional library to another etc And an overall comment To me namespaces are a solution to _ organization of code that lets me type less due to use aliasing. I don't need namespaces to organize my code, I can prefix with long names easily enough as it is. I need namespaces to organize my code without punishing end users of libraries with lots of typing. The biggest issue to me is #4

1: function calls in a namespace looking like static method calls is not a matter of taste its a huge WTF
2: class with same name as namespace and static method hiding functions in namespace is a bug and should have a fix
3: I want to override built in php functions (maybe i want to fix a string function not covered by mbstring without auditing all my code)
4: I it would be nice to be able to alias over other userland functions if I want. Maybe i’m transitioning from one functional library to another etc

And an overall comment
To me namespaces are a solution to _ organization of code that lets me type less due to use aliasing. I don’t need namespaces to organize my code, I can prefix with long names easily enough as it is. I need namespaces to organize my code without punishing end users of libraries with lots of typing.

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